Discussion of possible changes Discussed in Napier

[Robin - CRO 51]

Dear FD sailors,

STOP TALKING AND GO SAILING!
Prepare your self for the Worlds.

My answers to the questions in the discussion are:

1) NO
2) NO
3) RESTRAINED

I’m thinking this way: there are more than 300 active FDs round the world. If we adopt a new rule regarding the shape of rudder and a new rudder costs let’s say around 700 €, it is resulting that we all together are going spend more than 210 000 € on this change. Isn’t than better to spend this amount with intention to increase the fleet and refresh the popularity of the class in the world. We can launch some sort of subventions for new (and young) crews to help them in buying or equipping an FD. . . We can do lots of things!

Nice wind to all of you . . .

Many regards to the Spanish Inquisition.

Robin

[Steve]

I am in favor of keeping the current spinnaker size. I agree with other comments in trying to keep more people involved and this change would mostly distinguish the very front of fleets from the rest while reducing the number of participants. Very frequently on reaches I am already dumping the main, or close to it, and while it may be more exciting some of the time I think that limiting the boat to more runs than reaches just isn't worth it. For those lower wind times, it simply becomes more brains than brawn, so I'd rather keep the sailing competitive in all conditions and not favor the extremely athletic and/or heavier sailors for a thrill some of the time. This doesn't even consider the prospect of new sails, reinforcing rigs, etc. The boat is well balanced and good looking as it is, so if a few want much more, then perhaps they should get a 49er or something else.

I do not have as strong an opinion about the blades, but having a late-70s Mader, I am very sensitive to changing the CB much so that they may not fit in the trunk. I am also concerned that the improvement is not that significant and again makes it less competitive unless you have all the latest gizmos. I have had no issues of poor performance (e.g., cavitation, insufficient steerage) in all conditions, so other than giving a small speed advantage, and again, the edge to those that spend more time/money I do not see the need to do this. I would be interested in hearing what the big advantage would be to changing the rudder though and agree that this would be the place to do it, if at all.

As for the compass, I think the smaller tack-tick is fine, but am fine with allowing the larger as I do not think many (if any) will really move up to the larger. Most boats I see do not even have the smaller…

P.S. A final thought is that we should consider the pace of changes like moving to new boards and sails sizes. I have priced them in the past and found they run about $500-$1,000 apiece. This makes it a tougher proposition to race competitively as I have not yet moved to carbon spars, so it seems one must spend thousands just to stay current. The boat's hard enough to figure out all the current variables, so if these others also keep changing I think we'll never grow the class. I think more attention should be paid to growing the class than to trying to "soup up" a decades old design. When I trailer the boat around, most people find the FD already too technical and difficult to sail, so adding the difficulty of keeping up with all the changes amidst a bad global market just seems like the wrong direction. If people could pick up older boats and sail them competitively without too many changes then I think that's a win.

[Longshot]

>>> I have not yet moved to carbon spars, so it seems one must spend thousands just to stay current.
I agree - Poles, boom, and mast together run $5-6k; plus sails, I would probably spend the money elsewhere first. I really don't see the point to changing the rudder. Perhaps people are thinking "you can change the rudder without affecting the boat". That is false, since, after all, the presumed purpose is to affect the performance of the boat.

>>> The boat's hard enough to figure out all the current variables, ...
Ditto - stability in the design is important. While I would like a centerboard that fits in the trunk better, it is not a high priority. A new rudder design does not add materially to improving performance, so why bother?

>>> most people find the FD already too technical and difficult to sail, ...
When we show the boats at Expos and regattas, people focus on the complexity, which is an impediment to selling the fleet. An extra string to pull for the spinnaker or trapeze is to much, especially when the current spin is already a handful.

Someone changed the Wikipedia FD entry to mention that the class was extremely expensive. I did go in and change the entry, but we as a class should be thinking about costs and benefits. Carbon spars and changing rudders (and Kevlar/Mylar sails) are examples of expensive changes. (re)Designing a boat to appeal to a smaller minority of people WILL result in a smaller class. Super-sizing the spinnaker is an example of redesigning the boat to appeal to a smaller minority of sailors.

Given the number of boats with TackTics, I assumed they were legal. If they aren't, people should stop using them. I don't see the point of worrying about header/lift info on the display. As I mentioned, my TackTic quit, and I won't be buying another. But since we are apparently allowing TackTics, why not GPS's? Why not SpeedMates (I have one, and they are fun gadgets). I am NOT advocating for more gadgets, and while the speedmate is fun, I don't race with it. I do suspect people race with GPS's. So why limit the question to TackTics - why not open it to electronic instruments?

Overall all of the proposed changes are expensive and low yield, so I don't see the point. I would like to know if anyone but me is interested in up-sizing the mainsail by 5 or 10 square feet; I think this is a cost effective way to boost performance. So far response to this idea has been tepid at best.posting.php?mode=reply&f=2&t=61#
I don't see why people would want to up-size spinnakers before up-sizing the main.

Summary -
No to rudder redesign, no to spinnaker up-sizing, indifferent to gadgets, and yes to mainsail up-sizing. Is there interest in this (and starting another thread) or is it just me?

Longshot (Doug McWilliams)

[matbard]

I agree with you, Longshot. Maybe a smart redesign in main and headsail could be viable, and electronics is funny to play with. But my main concern is: why not going to laminate sails now?

- Matteo

[richardscarr]

So it seems there is a lot of discussion going on
Bigger kite. Yes , even with Norm and my self being some what light thats ok.Will the mast stand up to it. Well with out going out and doing some trialing how would we know. I say put some on boats go do a few sessions in 15+ knots and see what happens. Line up with a normal size kite and see who can keep it upright as well as sail the right angles.Would make no difference to to us. We would just have to train a little harder! hahaha and race a little harder of course.

All talk and no trialing is a bit pointless.
We have to remember that the German fleet proposed it.
I propose they put a 505 kite on, do some testing, take some vidoe footage and let us hear and see what they come up with.From memory the boat that proposed it is a sail maker so they have access to a loft. Do the RND then come to the class with a plan.

Centreboard and rudder changes. Classic boat, classic lines , no need to change it.

Main sail- man who on earth started on that for gods sake. The main really is only along for the ride once its planning conditions.Leave it as it is.

If you want to have all that modern stuff go sail a 49er or some plastic skiff

[John.L.Best]

Dear Hideo,

Many thanks for your post, I have been watching the competitors postings with interest, and have a view about the Gennicker. The problem with this idea is that the FD hull shape is not suited to the sort of power generated by an Aysmetric spinnaker. For a variety of reasons the way asymetric spis loads up the hull will not generate much greater speed. Leonard Mader played with an asymetric spi and a fully battened mainsail with the FD Mach One. He did not spend all that much time developing it, because he was busy with other projects, but the boat proved difficult to sail and was quite badly balanced. We would almost certainly have to go to a fully battened mainsail, and a masthead spinnaker, with extra wire [img]rigging%20to[/img]support the rig higher up. An asymetric spi attached at the present halyard entry point would just not be big enough to provide the extra power to make the boat faster. Also the spinnaker "probiscus" would be very difficult to fit, it would have to be retracting, thus the whole foredeck arrangement would need to be heavily modified, and would be expensive. James and I looked into all this about 8 years ago, and came to the conclusion that at 2002 prices, in £ sterling a new spi and all the bits would add £ 3000 to the price of the boat, a new fully battened mainsail would be about £875 total £3875, not cheap and unlikely to get the approval of the class. A pity, because I subsequently went on to buy an RS 800 twin trapeze asymetric racing boat. Not as much fun as the FD upwind, but greatttttt! downwind until 20 knots of wind, then very hard sailing.

I look forward to hearing other folks views, but I really don't think that the asymetric spi is the way forward.

Regards, John Best

[hideotayama]

Dear John,

Thanks for your analysis and argument.
I have a different opinion but I would like to delay my response until I have experienced gennaker sailing on my FD. I left the gennaker prod kit with the boat which went to Europe after Napier Worlds, so I need to prepare another set to experiment here in New Zealand. I hope I will have had some experience by the end of March.

Best regards,
Hideo - NZL 110

[richardscarr]

So where are we with these changes. Have the Germans done some sailing.Are there any changes to take place
Norm and I its seems will com eout of hibernation and come to Italy on Garda for 2011 worlds
So if there are going to be changes then can we know about them now please

[hideotayama]

Gennaker Test.jpg (35.88 KiB) Viewed 139 times

I finally tested the gennaker on my FD a few times in the past few weekends.
The boat setup didn't need any modification except for the lengthening of the spinnaker halyard(because gennaker is bigger than spinnaker) and, of course, the addition of the prod(retractable bow sprit).
The wind conditions were ranged from 5 knots to 16 knots although I didn't push for the limit in 16 knots because I was concerned about the strength of the prod(I believe this issue has been solved since).
I felt the gennaker is powerful enough although the halyard position at the mast is exactly the same as the spinnaker and the boat goes smoothly.
Velocitek-SC1 was used to record the boat speed. We managed between 7 and 8 knots under the estimated wind speed of 6 to 7 knots(the wind speed measurement at the club on the beach was 4-5 knots).
The area is known for strong tidal current so the GPS measurement by Velocitek might not show the real boat speed. I think we need to sail with another FD to know better the difference between the conventional spinnaker and my gennaker.

The cost
- Gennaker : NZ$1332
- Prod (carbon tube from C-Tech x 2.7m) : NZ$289.54($232.37 for tube + $57.17 for freight)
So the total cost was NZ$1621.54, which is about €800, excluding several blocks, ropes, and bits and pieces from my spare parts and tool box.
I suppose the sailmakers (Doyle Sails Nelson) gave me a special price for the gennaker to support the project so standard price might be more expensive, but I don't think it would cost much more than conventional spinnaker.
The prod would cost less than the spinnaker pole because we can use a simple carbon tube.

My evaluation at this stage is very positive. I hope I can test it a few more times to know the best length of the prod and its performance in heavier conditions before I am discouraged by the onset of the winter here.

I too saw Mader Mach-II in Adelaide. I think it was too ambitious and drastic and it ended up a boat of completely different characteristics than FD. It was a skiff.
The spinnaker is the remains of square-rigger and if you want to keep up with the progress of the sailing world, the gennaker is the natural choice, I believe.

Hideo